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	<title>Comments on: Where we could have been this evening &#8211; Lamy/Freiberga/Miliband</title>
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	<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/</link>
	<description>At the intersection of the EU, UK politics and tech</description>
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		<title>By: Hope, Presidents, and Coins &#124; NE Blogs Home</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125270</link>
		<dc:creator>Hope, Presidents, and Coins &#124; NE Blogs Home</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125270</guid>
		<description>[...] Jon Worth put it quite simply &#8211; Where we could have been this evening – Lamy/Freiberga/Miliband. And though that is not the dream scenario, it perhaps (and that&#8217;s a big perhaps when we talk [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jon Worth put it quite simply &#8211; Where we could have been this evening – Lamy/Freiberga/Miliband. And though that is not the dream scenario, it perhaps (and that&#8217;s a big perhaps when we talk [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125255</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125255</guid>
		<description>I disagree! You don&#039;t have to have a grand plan with a definite destination in order to move gradually to a good place. Evolution&#039;s the perfect example! Creationism is actually a bad approach; maybe one of the problems with the EU is that too many people see it as a grand plan rather than an evolving thing. Even God would surely have messed up if he really had done things that way.

Party candidates selected by votes of MEPs, open manifestos and pitches, a public QMV vote by governments and EP confirmation - all these sound good to me, and I&#039;d have been pleased had we had *any* of them. I&#039;m not necessarily saying there should be direct elections eventually, no. Maybe selection by the EP would be good enough. Maybe open, public selection by member states would be okay if the Commission President were elected or chosen by the EP. Dunno. I do know I want the EU to go in the general direction of more openness and democratic legitimacy. Being genuinely closer to citizens. Had there been more of that in the Constitution/Lisbon then I could have been really enthusiastic about it. I&#039;d also have been impressed by any EU leader who&#039;d said, after the 2005 referendums, that the project was broken and it had to be genuinely back to the drawing board.

You&#039;ve still not actually answered my question, though, Robert. Do you want this intergovernmentalism in making these appointments, subject to things being &quot;a bit more open&quot;, or do you want something else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree! You don&#8217;t have to have a grand plan with a definite destination in order to move gradually to a good place. Evolution&#8217;s the perfect example! Creationism is actually a bad approach; maybe one of the problems with the EU is that too many people see it as a grand plan rather than an evolving thing. Even God would surely have messed up if he really had done things that way.</p>
<p>Party candidates selected by votes of MEPs, open manifestos and pitches, a public QMV vote by governments and EP confirmation &#8211; all these sound good to me, and I&#8217;d have been pleased had we had *any* of them. I&#8217;m not necessarily saying there should be direct elections eventually, no. Maybe selection by the EP would be good enough. Maybe open, public selection by member states would be okay if the Commission President were elected or chosen by the EP. Dunno. I do know I want the EU to go in the general direction of more openness and democratic legitimacy. Being genuinely closer to citizens. Had there been more of that in the Constitution/Lisbon then I could have been really enthusiastic about it. I&#8217;d also have been impressed by any EU leader who&#8217;d said, after the 2005 referendums, that the project was broken and it had to be genuinely back to the drawing board.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve still not actually answered my question, though, Robert. Do you want this intergovernmentalism in making these appointments, subject to things being &#8220;a bit more open&#8221;, or do you want something else?</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125254</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125254</guid>
		<description>I agree that the process could have been more open, but what would be the *real* consequence of that? Would the heads of government made their decision in any other way? Wasn&#039;t it always to be expected that the choice would be a compromise based on a number of factors (strong figure who seemingly takes power away from governments vs less strong who doesn&#039;t have the gravitas)?

You&#039;d need to be more precise in how you want these appointments to be made, beyond talking about small steps. For example, should the roadmap be to firstly to have each candidate make a pitch that is publicly broadcast; next step to involve the EP in confirmation, then eventually to make it a EU wide decision of the people.

I think a lot of the problems with EU governance is the countries just seem to muddle through instead of making a clear statement of how they plan to achieve things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the process could have been more open, but what would be the *real* consequence of that? Would the heads of government made their decision in any other way? Wasn&#8217;t it always to be expected that the choice would be a compromise based on a number of factors (strong figure who seemingly takes power away from governments vs less strong who doesn&#8217;t have the gravitas)?</p>
<p>You&#8217;d need to be more precise in how you want these appointments to be made, beyond talking about small steps. For example, should the roadmap be to firstly to have each candidate make a pitch that is publicly broadcast; next step to involve the EP in confirmation, then eventually to make it a EU wide decision of the people.</p>
<p>I think a lot of the problems with EU governance is the countries just seem to muddle through instead of making a clear statement of how they plan to achieve things.</p>
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		<title>By: Die postheroische EU : Verfassungsblog</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125253</link>
		<dc:creator>Die postheroische EU : Verfassungsblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125253</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8211; das Urteil der Eurobloggosphäre über das Van Rompuy/Ashton-Ticket fällt ziemlich einhellig vernichtend aus.  Ich will da gar nicht widersprechen. Aber ein kleiner ketzerischer Gedanke: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; das Urteil der Eurobloggosphäre über das Van Rompuy/Ashton-Ticket fällt ziemlich einhellig vernichtend aus.  Ich will da gar nicht widersprechen. Aber ein kleiner ketzerischer Gedanke: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125252</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125252</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure why you think I have any misconceptions about what Eurosceptics want, Robert. I know many people want a purely intergovernmental EU, or no EU at all. The fact that they do and I don&#039;t is one of the reasons I&#039;m not comfortable being called a Eurosceptic. 

As for the Queen. I&#039;m now content for us to have a Queen, as is the modern practice elsewhere Europe, for instance in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and Spain. Let&#039;s not assume the universal European standard is to be a republic. 

The Queen has no real power; to replace her with an ex-politician would serve no real democratic purpose - what would the policies of an elected head of state be? How would we know who to vote for? - but it would involve a loss in that our head of state would then unnecessarily be a political figure rather than an apolitical one.  The only importance of the monarch is at times of constitutional crisis involving a real risk to democracy - say, if a tyrannical party got a majority in the Commons and started legislating dictatorially. In those circumstances it might actually be an advantage to have an politically disinterested figure in place to defend constitutional integrity - as King Juan Carlos did in Spain in 1981. 

Anyway, I don&#039;t think it follows at all that if you think the EU should be more democratic, then you have to be republican. 

And hang on a second, Robert - let me turn this back on you. You&#039;re content to criticise Eurosceptics for their intergovernmentalism - fine. But are you actually defending this selection process against critics like me who are coming from a slightly different angle? Or do you actually agree with me, but simply object to hypocrisy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure why you think I have any misconceptions about what Eurosceptics want, Robert. I know many people want a purely intergovernmental EU, or no EU at all. The fact that they do and I don&#8217;t is one of the reasons I&#8217;m not comfortable being called a Eurosceptic. </p>
<p>As for the Queen. I&#8217;m now content for us to have a Queen, as is the modern practice elsewhere Europe, for instance in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and Spain. Let&#8217;s not assume the universal European standard is to be a republic. </p>
<p>The Queen has no real power; to replace her with an ex-politician would serve no real democratic purpose &#8211; what would the policies of an elected head of state be? How would we know who to vote for? &#8211; but it would involve a loss in that our head of state would then unnecessarily be a political figure rather than an apolitical one.  The only importance of the monarch is at times of constitutional crisis involving a real risk to democracy &#8211; say, if a tyrannical party got a majority in the Commons and started legislating dictatorially. In those circumstances it might actually be an advantage to have an politically disinterested figure in place to defend constitutional integrity &#8211; as King Juan Carlos did in Spain in 1981. </p>
<p>Anyway, I don&#8217;t think it follows at all that if you think the EU should be more democratic, then you have to be republican. </p>
<p>And hang on a second, Robert &#8211; let me turn this back on you. You&#8217;re content to criticise Eurosceptics for their intergovernmentalism &#8211; fine. But are you actually defending this selection process against critics like me who are coming from a slightly different angle? Or do you actually agree with me, but simply object to hypocrisy?</p>
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		<title>By: FT.com &#124; Gideon Rachman's Blog &#124; Send veto, guns and money: the EU &#8220;presidency&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125251</link>
		<dc:creator>FT.com &#124; Gideon Rachman's Blog &#124; Send veto, guns and money: the EU &#8220;presidency&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125251</guid>
		<description>[...] Where we could have been this evening Jon Worth&#8217;s Euroblog [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Where we could have been this evening Jon Worth&#8217;s Euroblog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: EU appointments: Always look on the bright side of life! &#124; European Alternatives</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125250</link>
		<dc:creator>EU appointments: Always look on the bright side of life! &#124; European Alternatives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125250</guid>
		<description>[...] Jon Worth and Julien Frisch have already made clear all the uncertainties with the new nominations. But it’s a new -if grey- morning over Europe and I want to see the good side of things. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jon Worth and Julien Frisch have already made clear all the uncertainties with the new nominations. But it’s a new -if grey- morning over Europe and I want to see the good side of things. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/where-we-could-have-been-this-evening-lamyfreibergamiliband/comment-page-1/#comment-125249</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2883#comment-125249</guid>
		<description>@Car Gardner: unfortunately I think you&#039;ll find most eurosceptics don&#039;t share your ideas. Their concept on democracy *is* intergovernmental, possibly with the line taken by the relevent minister or representitive decided by Parliament. They would happily get rid of the EP or reduce it to a purely advisory role. They would probably also insist all laws made at the European level be ratified by member state Parliaments before coming into effect, as well as allowing member states to override any laws they chose.

In other words, an approach that excludes direct participation of the people and allows countries to ignore their international legal obligations whenever it suited them politically.

BTW I was thinking - the same eurosceptics say nothing about how the UK head of state is not even appointed by hereditary. Somehow that&#039;s perfectly OK, possibly because they&#039;re &#039;British&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Car Gardner: unfortunately I think you&#8217;ll find most eurosceptics don&#8217;t share your ideas. Their concept on democracy *is* intergovernmental, possibly with the line taken by the relevent minister or representitive decided by Parliament. They would happily get rid of the EP or reduce it to a purely advisory role. They would probably also insist all laws made at the European level be ratified by member state Parliaments before coming into effect, as well as allowing member states to override any laws they chose.</p>
<p>In other words, an approach that excludes direct participation of the people and allows countries to ignore their international legal obligations whenever it suited them politically.</p>
<p>BTW I was thinking &#8211; the same eurosceptics say nothing about how the UK head of state is not even appointed by hereditary. Somehow that&#8217;s perfectly OK, possibly because they&#8217;re &#8216;British&#8217;.</p>
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