Comments on: The Eurostar case: learn the lessons, for this is not a good case of social media use http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/ At the intersection of the EU, UK politics and tech Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:21:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jon http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125460 Jon Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:44:22 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125460 @Rich - there is the safety tunnel between the 2 rail tunnels. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel#Tunnelling" rel="nofollow">the diagramme here</a>. There are special vehicles that run in the safety tunnel, they can operate in both directions and are slightly narrower than regular buses. You can see them stabled to the left side of the train when a London-Paris Eurostar leaves the tunnel, on the French side. @Rich – there is the safety tunnel between the 2 rail tunnels. See the diagramme here. There are special vehicles that run in the safety tunnel, they can operate in both directions and are slightly narrower than regular buses. You can see them stabled to the left side of the train when a London-Paris Eurostar leaves the tunnel, on the French side.

]]> By: Rich Baker - Digital Engagement http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125459 Rich Baker - Digital Engagement Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:39:14 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125459 Great post Jon. I heard from a fireman friend a few days ago that all tunnels have separate tunnels for fire crews to get down. Could they not get a coach down there instead of leaving people stranded? Great post Jon. I heard from a fireman friend a few days ago that all tunnels have separate tunnels for fire crews to get down. Could they not get a coach down there instead of leaving people stranded?

]]> By: James Burnside http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125445 James Burnside Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:20:30 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125445 I don't understand why it isn't already first priority to get any broken down train out as fast as possible. OK these were the last Eurostar services of the day, but Eurotunnel had a large number of their own customers trying to get on the Shuttle (which runs round the clock), so the blockage had a direct effect on their own business, regardless of what contractual arrangements exist between Eurostar and Eurotunnel to deal with disruption. I imagine we're going to be treated to the unedifying spectacle of the two companies blaming each other for the mess. If the locos aren't powerful enough, they should have got better ones. A laden Shuttle can't be any lighter than a Eurostar, so do they need two locos for any break-down? As for their speed, all that was needed was to get them to the Shuttle terminal at Cheriton or to Ashford. From there, they could either get pasengers into other trains, cross-platform, or bring in more powerful (electric) locos to haul the trains up to St Pancras. At the very least, passengers wouldn't have to suffer from the heat/humidity and claustrophobia inside the tunnel for too long, and it would be easier to supply them with food/water if necessary. I don’t understand why it isn’t already first priority to get any broken down train out as fast as possible. OK these were the last Eurostar services of the day, but Eurotunnel had a large number of their own customers trying to get on the Shuttle (which runs round the clock), so the blockage had a direct effect on their own business, regardless of what contractual arrangements exist between Eurostar and Eurotunnel to deal with disruption. I imagine we’re going to be treated to the unedifying spectacle of the two companies blaming each other for the mess.

If the locos aren’t powerful enough, they should have got better ones. A laden Shuttle can’t be any lighter than a Eurostar, so do they need two locos for any break-down?
As for their speed, all that was needed was to get them to the Shuttle terminal at Cheriton or to Ashford. From there, they could either get pasengers into other trains, cross-platform, or bring in more powerful (electric) locos to haul the trains up to St Pancras. At the very least, passengers wouldn’t have to suffer from the heat/humidity and claustrophobia inside the tunnel for too long, and it would be easier to supply them with food/water if necessary.

]]> By: Jon http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125442 Jon Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:40:18 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125442 Fair point about the time to get people to one door... As for dragging out the stranded trains - they have 5 locos to do that (more <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Class_0001" rel="nofollow">here</a>). Problem is that these can do 100km/h only and are diesel, and you need at least 2 of them to drag a Eurostar. They should have more - and stronger - machines on standby and make it first priority to drag broken down trains out of the tunnel. Should be easily possible to guarantee maximum 1 hour in there. Fair point about the time to get people to one door…

As for dragging out the stranded trains – they have 5 locos to do that (more here). Problem is that these can do 100km/h only and are diesel, and you need at least 2 of them to drag a Eurostar. They should have more – and stronger – machines on standby and make it first priority to drag broken down trains out of the tunnel. Should be easily possible to guarantee maximum 1 hour in there.

]]> By: James Burnside http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125441 James Burnside Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:50:37 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125441 Hi Jon, I think you underestimate the effort involved in evacuating the train. Lining up the doors is the least of the problems. You know yourself how long the train is. Getting a full load of passengers (and luggfage) down the train to the right door(s), especially in dark/stuffy conditions with many likely to be panicky, not to mention young children and those less mobile, would not be easy. That Eurostar/Eurotunnel apparently got very few staff in place to assist with the trains which were evacuated would have made the task even harder. I don't understand why they couldn't haul the trains out, as they eventually did with two or three of them. There should be locomotives on standby at both ends of the tunnel speciifcally to clear blockages. Getting the trains out, either to the shuttle terminal or to Ashford, would have minimised the problems, even if the length of the overall delay wasn't significantly reduced. On a Friday evening, whoever was left as duty manager evidently didn't have the clout or the nous to deal with the problems, and didn't call in their bosses until much later. You'll probably find that Eurostar's breakdown fee to Eurotunnel is much less than the tow-out fee, so that the initial instinct was to wait for a while and see if the trains "thawed out" and could then restart. On the mainstream media front, throughout Saturday, the focus was on the individual horror stories of a self-selecting sample of passengers. BBC, Sky etc appeared to make little effort to push Eurostar to give useful/accurate information for intending travellers. At best it was an afterthought, and of no use to passengers such as yourself booked on trains on Saturday or Sunday. Hi Jon, I think you underestimate the effort involved in evacuating the train. Lining up the doors is the least of the problems. You know yourself how long the train is. Getting a full load of passengers (and luggfage) down the train to the right door(s), especially in dark/stuffy conditions with many likely to be panicky, not to mention young children and those less mobile, would not be easy. That Eurostar/Eurotunnel apparently got very few staff in place to assist with the trains which were evacuated would have made the task even harder.

I don’t understand why they couldn’t haul the trains out, as they eventually did with two or three of them. There should be locomotives on standby at both ends of the tunnel speciifcally to clear blockages. Getting the trains out, either to the shuttle terminal or to Ashford, would have minimised the problems, even if the length of the overall delay wasn’t significantly reduced.

On a Friday evening, whoever was left as duty manager evidently didn’t have the clout or the nous to deal with the problems, and didn’t call in their bosses until much later. You’ll probably find that Eurostar’s breakdown fee to Eurotunnel is much less than the tow-out fee, so that the initial instinct was to wait for a while and see if the trains “thawed out” and could then restart.

On the mainstream media front, throughout Saturday, the focus was on the individual horror stories of a self-selecting sample of passengers. BBC, Sky etc appeared to make little effort to push Eurostar to give useful/accurate information for intending travellers. At best it was an afterthought, and of no use to passengers such as yourself booked on trains on Saturday or Sunday.

]]> By: Jon http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125436 Jon Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:08:50 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125436 It's very easy to evacuate an Eurostar train. The trains are so long there's always 1 exit door from the train that's adjacent to a door to the rescue tunnel. See <a href="http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/images_export/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/InfrastructuralFires/channelTunnel3.gif" rel="nofollow">this</a> for how the tunnel structure works. Why they didn't move the people off the trains sooner I have no idea. It’s very easy to evacuate an Eurostar train. The trains are so long there’s always 1 exit door from the train that’s adjacent to a door to the rescue tunnel. See this for how the tunnel structure works.

Why they didn’t move the people off the trains sooner I have no idea.

]]> By: quarsan http://www.jonworth.eu/the-eurostar-case-learn-the-lessons-for-this-is-not-a-good-case-of-social-media-use/comment-page-1/#comment-125435 quarsan Sun, 20 Dec 2009 16:01:07 +0000 http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=2984#comment-125435 One question that I haven't heard being asked is about their accident awareness and reaction. What would have happened if, as has happened before, there was a fire? Would they have left four trains full of people underground for almost a day? If the answer is yes, then Eurostar fails all Health and Safety requirements. If the answer is no, then it begs the question of why were so many people left so long? One question that I haven’t heard being asked is about their accident awareness and reaction. What would have happened if, as has happened before, there was a fire? Would they have left four trains full of people underground for almost a day?

If the answer is yes, then Eurostar fails all Health and Safety requirements. If the answer is no, then it begs the question of why were so many people left so long?

]]>