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	<title>Comments on: The amusing approach to the Treaty of Lisbon &#8211; the spoofer&#8217;s guide</title>
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	<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/</link>
	<description>At the intersection of the EU, UK politics and tech</description>
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		<title>By: belgianwaffle &#187; Long Dark Night of the Europhile Soul</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-128535</link>
		<dc:creator>belgianwaffle &#187; Long Dark Night of the Europhile Soul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-128535</guid>
		<description>[...] the Lisbon Treaty. Well, it wasn&#8217;t a particularly clear or lovable treaty. Jon Worth has a copy of the Jason O&#8217;Mahony summary on his blog and for my money, that&#8217;s probably the best explanation of the contents. Not that anyone cares [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Lisbon Treaty. Well, it wasn&#8217;t a particularly clear or lovable treaty. Jon Worth has a copy of the Jason O&#8217;Mahony summary on his blog and for my money, that&#8217;s probably the best explanation of the contents. Not that anyone cares [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Hargreaves</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Hargreaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118646</guid>
		<description>I like the way this post starts with the words &quot;A *friendly* Irishman...&quot; - presumably in order to distinguish him from the normal Irishmen, who we all know are in fact *the enemy*! 

Of course, since last Friday...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the way this post starts with the words &#8220;A *friendly* Irishman&#8230;&#8221; &#8211; presumably in order to distinguish him from the normal Irishmen, who we all know are in fact *the enemy*! </p>
<p>Of course, since last Friday&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kosmolinks #15 &#171; Kosmopolit</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118419</link>
		<dc:creator>Kosmolinks #15 &#171; Kosmopolit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 08:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118419</guid>
		<description>[...] The amusing approach to the Treaty of Lisbon - the spooferâ€™s guide [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The amusing approach to the Treaty of Lisbon &#8211; the spooferâ€™s guide [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Trooper Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118406</link>
		<dc:creator>Trooper Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118406</guid>
		<description>Ralf,

I don&#039;t give a tinker&#039;s cuss for parliamentary sovereignty, I believe in the sovereignty of the people. 

The canard of &#039;representative democracy&#039; is only ever produced when it is clear that the Parliament is defying the people&#039;s will.

Unlike many who oppose the EU, I don&#039;t do it from a wish from a wish to return to the past, but rather from the desire to live in a truly democratic, sovereign country.

The argument in this specific case for a referendum in my country is based on a promise from each of the main three parties to hold a referendum. It was upon this basis that they were elected. The political class has stolen our referendum, (for this reason I hope the Irish vote no). If politicians show contempt for the people, they become, not representatives of democracy, but a barrier to democracy.

As for my use of the word propaganda, I don&#039;t know what you&#039;re wingeing about - especially as you go far further to blacken your opponents as &quot;wilfully malicious disinformation activists&quot;.  At least with the latter, I am not expected to fund it through my taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralf,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t give a tinker&#8217;s cuss for parliamentary sovereignty, I believe in the sovereignty of the people. </p>
<p>The canard of &#8216;representative democracy&#8217; is only ever produced when it is clear that the Parliament is defying the people&#8217;s will.</p>
<p>Unlike many who oppose the EU, I don&#8217;t do it from a wish from a wish to return to the past, but rather from the desire to live in a truly democratic, sovereign country.</p>
<p>The argument in this specific case for a referendum in my country is based on a promise from each of the main three parties to hold a referendum. It was upon this basis that they were elected. The political class has stolen our referendum, (for this reason I hope the Irish vote no). If politicians show contempt for the people, they become, not representatives of democracy, but a barrier to democracy.</p>
<p>As for my use of the word propaganda, I don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re wingeing about &#8211; especially as you go far further to blacken your opponents as &#8220;wilfully malicious disinformation activists&#8221;.  At least with the latter, I am not expected to fund it through my taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralf Grahn</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118397</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf Grahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118397</guid>
		<description>Trooper Thompson, 

You seem to have your concepts topsy-turvy: The norm for legislation, including approval of international treaty commitments, is through parliaments in the world of democracies. 

This is based on the principle of representative democracy. 

If you are a supporter of some other form of democracy (direct?), please take a principled stand. 

You are right, in that the European Commission makes a fair job of informing European citizens about the activities, decisions and legislation of the European Union. Admittedly, communicating in 23 official languages comes at a  cost, but in principle the expense is necessary to give the EU citizens a chance to be informed.

Looking at the blogosphere, especially in English, I think that more of an information effort would be needed, in particular to counter the most glaring untruths spread by either gravely uninformed or wilfully malicious disinformation activists.   

You seem to equate information with propaganda, which tells more about you than about the communication effort by the Commission. 

The latter is usually correct as to the facts, although the general problem of corporate communications, gloss, is in evidence there, too. 

This is one of the reasons for the need of scientific analysis and independent inquiry, of which there is a fair amount available for those who are ready to digest other things than gall. 

I have sometimes wondered at people who trumpet the cause of &#039;parliamentary sovereignty&#039;, only to nullify the national parliaments with regard to EU treaty amendments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trooper Thompson, </p>
<p>You seem to have your concepts topsy-turvy: The norm for legislation, including approval of international treaty commitments, is through parliaments in the world of democracies. </p>
<p>This is based on the principle of representative democracy. </p>
<p>If you are a supporter of some other form of democracy (direct?), please take a principled stand. </p>
<p>You are right, in that the European Commission makes a fair job of informing European citizens about the activities, decisions and legislation of the European Union. Admittedly, communicating in 23 official languages comes at a  cost, but in principle the expense is necessary to give the EU citizens a chance to be informed.</p>
<p>Looking at the blogosphere, especially in English, I think that more of an information effort would be needed, in particular to counter the most glaring untruths spread by either gravely uninformed or wilfully malicious disinformation activists.   </p>
<p>You seem to equate information with propaganda, which tells more about you than about the communication effort by the Commission. </p>
<p>The latter is usually correct as to the facts, although the general problem of corporate communications, gloss, is in evidence there, too. </p>
<p>This is one of the reasons for the need of scientific analysis and independent inquiry, of which there is a fair amount available for those who are ready to digest other things than gall. </p>
<p>I have sometimes wondered at people who trumpet the cause of &#8216;parliamentary sovereignty&#8217;, only to nullify the national parliaments with regard to EU treaty amendments.</p>
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		<title>By: Trooper Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118379</link>
		<dc:creator>Trooper Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118379</guid>
		<description>&quot;The EU is more of a Batman type superpower&quot;...

&quot;The Treaties and the European Court are our batmobile, getting us where we want to go, and our single market is our batarang.&quot;

Holy cow! Is this the best you can do? The tone is not so much light-hearted, but pitched at the level of a five-year-old.

Jon,

your comment regarding passports not only shows a very selfish attitude, namely the good of this country should be secondary to your personal convenience as an ex-pat in Brussels, it also verges on hysterical. Are you suggesting that if the UK left the EU, all British citizens would be expelled from Belgium? 

Ralf,

I love it when the Euro-federalists play the poor relation in terms of media and propaganda. Do you have any idea how much taxpayers money the EU spends to further their political goals? The problem is that the people remain unconvinced, hence the need to push the ratification process through national parliaments in France, the Netherlands and the UK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The EU is more of a Batman type superpower&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;The Treaties and the European Court are our batmobile, getting us where we want to go, and our single market is our batarang.&#8221;</p>
<p>Holy cow! Is this the best you can do? The tone is not so much light-hearted, but pitched at the level of a five-year-old.</p>
<p>Jon,</p>
<p>your comment regarding passports not only shows a very selfish attitude, namely the good of this country should be secondary to your personal convenience as an ex-pat in Brussels, it also verges on hysterical. Are you suggesting that if the UK left the EU, all British citizens would be expelled from Belgium? </p>
<p>Ralf,</p>
<p>I love it when the Euro-federalists play the poor relation in terms of media and propaganda. Do you have any idea how much taxpayers money the EU spends to further their political goals? The problem is that the people remain unconvinced, hence the need to push the ratification process through national parliaments in France, the Netherlands and the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruno</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118345</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118345</guid>
		<description>The existence of EU citizenship is only a legal form. The EU has been created by a generation of officials not Europe&#039;s peoples. Ever closer Union of Europe&#039;s peoples became ever closer union of the national civil servants. Concrete prospects of a European, as opposed to EU, politics were last in evidence during French and Dutch referendums three years ago. The EU soon knocked all that on the head. You can not bring citizenship into life, with all that means, especially in the progressive sense, by decree</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The existence of EU citizenship is only a legal form. The EU has been created by a generation of officials not Europe&#8217;s peoples. Ever closer Union of Europe&#8217;s peoples became ever closer union of the national civil servants. Concrete prospects of a European, as opposed to EU, politics were last in evidence during French and Dutch referendums three years ago. The EU soon knocked all that on the head. You can not bring citizenship into life, with all that means, especially in the progressive sense, by decree</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/the-amusing-approach-to-the-treaty-of-lisbon-the-spoofers-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-118327</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/?p=1232#comment-118327</guid>
		<description>I agree Ralf. But there are few people (apart from you and I and scant few others online) who actively defend such positions.

Plus we can&#039;t let the UK leave anyway - it would make my life as a UK citizen quite hellish. I would have to get a Belgian passport or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Ralf. But there are few people (apart from you and I and scant few others online) who actively defend such positions.</p>
<p>Plus we can&#8217;t let the UK leave anyway &#8211; it would make my life as a UK citizen quite hellish. I would have to get a Belgian passport or something.</p>
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