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	<title>Comments on: Avoiding the second order election effect</title>
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	<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/</link>
	<description>At the intersection of the EU, UK politics and tech</description>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-118449</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/#comment-118449</guid>
		<description>Erm, if you now search in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&amp;hs=UZQ&amp;q=second+order+election+effect&amp;btnG=Search&amp;meta=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Google UK for &#039;second order election effect&#039;&lt;/a&gt; you get this very post... Not very handy when I was trying to answer your point Jeremy!

Anyway, the academics who have written about this are Reif and Schmitt &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-6765.1980.tb00737.x&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;see this&lt;/a&gt;. Their hypothesis holds true for European elections elsewhere, and from what I know of German &lt;em&gt;LÃ¤nder&lt;/em&gt; elections the incumbent government tends to get a good battering. However at a guess a country that has grown up with multi-level governance and multi-party systems should be better able to cope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erm, if you now search in <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&#038;client=firefox-a&#038;rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&#038;hs=UZQ&#038;q=second+order+election+effect&#038;btnG=Search&#038;meta=" rel="nofollow">Google UK for &#8216;second order election effect&#8217;</a> you get this very post&#8230; Not very handy when I was trying to answer your point Jeremy!</p>
<p>Anyway, the academics who have written about this are Reif and Schmitt <a href="http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-6765.1980.tb00737.x" rel="nofollow">see this</a>. Their hypothesis holds true for European elections elsewhere, and from what I know of German <em>LÃ¤nder</em> elections the incumbent government tends to get a good battering. However at a guess a country that has grown up with multi-level governance and multi-party systems should be better able to cope.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Hargreaves</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-118447</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Hargreaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/#comment-118447</guid>
		<description>I certainly agree with the general thrust of this post. 

However I don&#039;t think the reasons for the Lib Dems proposing local income tax are those you say - it is principally because Council Tax is unrelated to income, which an income tax obviously is (making it a much more progressive tax). 

But there is also the exact reason you give - that in order to be meaningful, tiers of government such as councils should be responsible for raising as much of their own money as possible. (In fact I think a small prize may be available to anyone who has ever heard Chris Huhne give a speech without mentioning this :)

And to be fair to him, this is something that Gordon Brown has made some progress on over the last eleven years (the flipside of Council Tax levels having almost doubled over that time). 

I don&#039;t understand jdc&#039;s comment here - raising a much higher proportion of your income locally is entirely compatible with a system of fiscal transfers between localities (it is in the rest of Europe...)

But I&#039;m really interested if this problem of second order elections just being in fact a referendum on the national government, is only a British thing. Isn&#039;t it to a greater or lesser extent true in the rest of Europe too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree with the general thrust of this post. </p>
<p>However I don&#8217;t think the reasons for the Lib Dems proposing local income tax are those you say &#8211; it is principally because Council Tax is unrelated to income, which an income tax obviously is (making it a much more progressive tax). </p>
<p>But there is also the exact reason you give &#8211; that in order to be meaningful, tiers of government such as councils should be responsible for raising as much of their own money as possible. (In fact I think a small prize may be available to anyone who has ever heard Chris Huhne give a speech without mentioning this <img src='http://www.jonworth.eu/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And to be fair to him, this is something that Gordon Brown has made some progress on over the last eleven years (the flipside of Council Tax levels having almost doubled over that time). </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand jdc&#8217;s comment here &#8211; raising a much higher proportion of your income locally is entirely compatible with a system of fiscal transfers between localities (it is in the rest of Europe&#8230;)</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m really interested if this problem of second order elections just being in fact a referendum on the national government, is only a British thing. Isn&#8217;t it to a greater or lesser extent true in the rest of Europe too?</p>
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		<title>By: a very public sociologist</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-112297</link>
		<dc:creator>a very public sociologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 20:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/#comment-112297</guid>
		<description>I am tickled when incumbent governments of the day plead with the electorate to vote according to local council records. Here in sunny Stoke the electorate did just that. 

When I was out on the doorsteps there was plenty of anger with the 10p tax issue. But more prevalent were local concerns which has made the Labour-led ruling coalition deeply unpopular. To illustrate, in 1995, all 60 councillors in the chamber were Labour. Now, it&#039;s 16.

More &lt;a href=&quot;http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2008/05/labour-cracks-in-potteries.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; if you fancy an overview of our small corner in the West Midlands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am tickled when incumbent governments of the day plead with the electorate to vote according to local council records. Here in sunny Stoke the electorate did just that. </p>
<p>When I was out on the doorsteps there was plenty of anger with the 10p tax issue. But more prevalent were local concerns which has made the Labour-led ruling coalition deeply unpopular. To illustrate, in 1995, all 60 councillors in the chamber were Labour. Now, it&#8217;s 16.</p>
<p>More <a href="http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2008/05/labour-cracks-in-potteries.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> if you fancy an overview of our small corner in the West Midlands.</p>
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		<title>By: jdc</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-111470</link>
		<dc:creator>jdc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/#comment-111470</guid>
		<description>&quot;If we want decent local politics, letâ€™s link financial and political responsibility&quot;

It&#039;s difficult to do that, though, without either taking money away from poor areas and giving it to rich ones, or else creating perverse incentives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we want decent local politics, letâ€™s link financial and political responsibility&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s difficult to do that, though, without either taking money away from poor areas and giving it to rich ones, or else creating perverse incentives.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-110108</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/#comment-110108</guid>
		<description>Just one thought as I&#039;m trying not to get too into party politics at this point... there&#039;s been a lot in the press saying that this is a vote against Labour. Cameron is careful to say he sees it as a positive vote for the Conservatives. The secret is it actually doesn&#039;t matter... a vote against x is the same as a vote for y if enough people turn to y over x or z or a etc.
One more thought - be more afraid that the BNP can poll over 5% in London. That&#039;s a significant number of hearts and minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just one thought as I&#8217;m trying not to get too into party politics at this point&#8230; there&#8217;s been a lot in the press saying that this is a vote against Labour. Cameron is careful to say he sees it as a positive vote for the Conservatives. The secret is it actually doesn&#8217;t matter&#8230; a vote against x is the same as a vote for y if enough people turn to y over x or z or a etc.<br />
One more thought &#8211; be more afraid that the BNP can poll over 5% in London. That&#8217;s a significant number of hearts and minds.</p>
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		<title>By: giacomo</title>
		<link>http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-109205</link>
		<dc:creator>giacomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 17:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jonworth.eu/avoiding-the-second-order-election-effect/#comment-109205</guid>
		<description>I perfectly agree on fiscal federalism, it&#039;s a matter of fairness and accountability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I perfectly agree on fiscal federalism, it&#8217;s a matter of fairness and accountability.</p>
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